Ever wondered how to make your marketing more effective or what words to avoid when crafting a compelling sales page headline? Well, today we have an episode that...at least intended to cover these marketing principles exclusively.
Instead - we get into something even more valuable.
Listen in as Adriane sets out to walk Steve through some of her suggestions for his latest sales page. Their convo quickly jumps straight down a rabbit hole filled with so many numbers and equations and metrics that it ultimately leads them to a bigger revelation about Steve's overall sales funnel design.
These are the type of "pick the expert's brain" moments that we live for, and we can't wait to hear about how you can apply the same disruptive-yet-infallible thinking to your own sales and marketing strategy!
Quick overview of what we cover:
CHECK OUT STEVE + ADRIANE'S PROJECT:
LISTEN TO MORE EPISODES WITH STEVE:
RESOURCES:
CONNECT W/ STEVE:
Ever wondered how to make your marketing more effective or what words to avoid when crafting a compelling sales page headline? Well, today we have an episode that...at least intended to cover these marketing principles exclusively.
Instead - we get into something even more valuable.
Listen in as Adriane sets out to walk Steve through some of her suggestions for his latest sales page. Their convo quickly jumps straight down a rabbit hole filled with so many numbers and equations and metrics that it ultimately leads them to a bigger revelation about Steve's overall sales funnel design.
These are the type of "pick the expert's brain" moments that we live for, and we can't wait to hear about how you can apply the same disruptive-yet-infallible thinking to your own sales and marketing strategy!
Quick overview of what we cover:
CHECK OUT STEVE + ADRIANE'S PROJECT:
LISTEN TO MORE EPISODES WITH STEVE:
RESOURCES:
CONNECT W/ STEVE:
Remember when we talked about buyer types for your decisive desys oh.
Speaker 1:Desi if they see that I don't read sales, I'm going to be like I am that buyer type. 90 percent of the time I don't read sales pages. Like I need the headline. And if that looks interesting to me, I'm going to click the button to see Go to just go to the checkout, usually. So we want to make that easy for people. And then the first few sections button, next section button, next section button. So these got a button each place if they. You know I've read enough. Ok, I've read enough. I'm ready to go.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Scaling Lounge, a podcast for established service based business owners who believe in working smarter, resting often, playing always and dreaming bigger. I'm your host, adrienne Gallia, and I want to help you create time, financial and lifestyle freedom by scaling with systems, strategy and the support of a team, so that your business is able to grow, with or without you. Let's get to it. So what we're doing today for the people is the last episode for the people, the last episode. Steve went through one of my curriculum curricula. That's the grammatically correct way of saying it.
Speaker 2:Curriculums.
Speaker 1:Curriculums one of my curriculums and I got a passing grade, Did you?
Speaker 2:pass with flying colors, man but that was to be expected.
Speaker 1:You know it's still sitting with me that you were like you're just going to, you're not going to listen when I say you're just going to change it anyway.
Speaker 2:It's different when the course slash curriculum expert reviews, someone with a master's in learning design who already crushes course programs, it's like so we've got that.
Speaker 1:And then today, we're going to go over Steve's marketing plan.
Speaker 2:What are we? Are we?
Speaker 1:going over the final.
Speaker 2:I sent you. I sent it to you, I sent you the web address on Insta and I sent you the funnel. I sent it to you 10 minutes before this episode so that you'd have no time to prep this. That was my strategy. Is that I could just like like Trojan horse it into your world?
Speaker 1:And yes, I did not get a chance to review this and had this been last week because Steve has been very sick, I said, oh, we could have reviewed your marketing problem. Maybe I'd have taken it easy on you. No, I don't want any sympathy, I don't want sympathy with you. I would have felt maybe slightly badly, shredding whatever you've got here. Look at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:I think. I think what I, what I am looking forward to the most, is the fact that this is being recorded and I'm going to be able to make improvements. Man, Like I don't I at no point do I profess to have all the answers, but what I, what I can do, is I'm happy to, I'm happy to have a crack. That's an Aussie thing. Aussies are quite happy to have a crack at something. But when you get some time with the master, let's do it. Let's, let's rock it.
Speaker 1:And now I'm going to feel even less bad if we wind up roasting this, because you just have gotten gotten through telling me that you very recently have made one of your potential clients cry. So, yeah, yeah, no more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was, that was, that was the thing, but it was needed, needed to happen, needed to break some, break some patterns. Okay, so that's all good. So I think I think the way that, the way that this works for the people at home is it's like oh, get your popcorn out and just listen to Adrian, destroy Steve and his ideas. That could be. That could be one part for edutainment, but the other part is we're going to make it relevant to everyone, right? So obviously, adrian asked me to do some pre-work, so I put together a little funnel, little funnel maps as how I'm going to like roll this little program out. And then number two is the landing page is probably like 90% built. I've got to preface this by saying this program is on the cards for release at the end of this month. So at the current time of filming this, it is the first of October here in the future, happy October. And yeah, it's ready. It's getting ready for launch in a month, so this is ideal timing.
Speaker 1:Look at you plug in, plug in, plug in your product. No, not plugging at all, just letting people know that they need to.
Speaker 2:they, they can apply the learnings that go on here, Because, while it will be about what I give Adrian, we will make it relevant so that you can take away some neat little tidbits and apply it to your universe.
Speaker 1:I already have a comment on. This is huge text. I'm looking at Steve's sales page on my phone and the text is I wish I could just get.
Speaker 2:Where can I? Where can I justify everything?
Speaker 1:What's your, what's your, what's your argument for having so this is your poppins text. Since you, since you, needed to call out all of my font, I see a pop, a very large poppins font, followed by the quicksand font.
Speaker 2:Very good, it's very good font analysis. My justification, my justification for you holding up the one tool or device, is that on my learn awesome website to do list is build everything desktop and then fix the mobile. So mobile is yet to be optimized.
Speaker 1:You haven't mobile optimized any of this. Okay.
Speaker 2:No, and this page isn't live yet, so you're technically that's a pass, because I'm yet to even look at what the mobile version of the site looks like.
Speaker 1:Okay, Well, I would also. So this is not really where I wanted to start, but since we're here, straight in.
Speaker 2:Right, You're just diving straight in, ripping my soul out.
Speaker 1:You love it. Hey, by the end you're just Andy's going to have to like get a wheelbarrow and wheel you to the car.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it. I'll be be nothing left of me.
Speaker 1:It is. It's a lot, even though it's not mobile optimized so we can readdress that at a later date. Yeah, but it's a lot of headline text. So Steve has written here zoom expert reveals how to skyrocket engagement and banish zoom fatigue. Even if you've tried every trick in the book with an unnecessary end quote, I can be everyone's proofreader. I catch every.
Speaker 2:I want you to proofread everything. I'm just going to high proofread everything.
Speaker 1:I think I asked you that at one time. Can I tell you the mistakes that this says?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the the punch? What when you are creating a headline for anything but especially a sales page, like what are the words that matter the most? Because this is too much.
Speaker 2:So many words too many words.
Speaker 1:What I would say the words are that matter the most, and I don't know that. Know that these are the right words. Which is a different issue for a different time is how to skyrocket engagement and banish zoom fatigue. And how does skyrocket engagement where? In meetings, in? Hmm?
Speaker 2:Do you like me to tell the people what this program is?
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's. What is the what's the program, what's the what's the program promise?
Speaker 2:Program promise is to pimp your zoom.
Speaker 1:That's not the, that's not a program promise, but all right.
Speaker 2:It's a great name.
Speaker 1:It's a great name. What's it at? What's it?
Speaker 2:do so. It helps experts. It's on the other screenshot that I sent you but you can tell the people it helps experts, engaging and interactive zoom workshops, masterclasses, webinars, training programs word for word, except two words switched Got it.
Speaker 1:I was saying workshops. I'm going to argue that that's probably not what people want. What are they if they have more engaging and interactive workshops, webinars and masterclasses? What do they get from that? Oh yeah, that's probably the thing they want. We got to go a step further, okay, so they probably want to get to more sweet, sweet nectar of the gods.
Speaker 2:They want some sales. They want some sweet sales off the back of their digital events.
Speaker 1:That is a far sexier promise than engaging a little Zoom meeting. Would you agree?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I have trouble. I have trouble. I have a question from the people. This won't be just. This is cool people, because I'm going to be asking the questions that you also probably have but isn't everyone just leading to more sales when you strip it back?
Speaker 1:You have a different vehicle.
Speaker 2:But if I'm just saying that you're going to get more, more sales on your sales event, then aren't I just saying that you're just going to get, like, this is a sales improvement program, but the way that improved sales is different. But ultimately it's all about improving sales.
Speaker 1:I would argue that Making more money for people, it needs to be combined. So I have this comes into. I have a different spin on niching than a lot of like. If I asked you what's your niche, how would you respond to that? Or how have you learned how to niche something?
Speaker 2:My niche for this aspect of learning awesome are experts.
Speaker 1:That's super broad.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Coaches, consultants, thought leaders, subject matter experts.
Speaker 1:So I look at niching as three things. Number one identity, so you got that. Part Two is the problem. And three is your, not the program values. Your values, so the things that you stand behind that you would. That's the hill. You're going to die on those types of values. That's the niche. So this program is solving a specific problem for a specific type of person in a specific type of way. So your promise essentially like this is a really high level way to look at this would be it's for experts. It solves the problems of. It solves the problem of getting more sales through higher engagement on better facilitated zooms. Identity problem values.
Speaker 2:Hear that people at home Write that shit down.
Speaker 1:Write it down. Niche doesn't have to be like, oh, you have to pigeonhole yourself into some tiny little thing. It's, it's a specific combination of things. So I think that your big when you go. So let's make this relevant to the people. So that's, if you're listening to this, you can make this applicable to you by thinking about those three things what's the specific identity? What's the specific problem, what's the specific solution which comes behind, like, what are your values?
Speaker 1:But when you go to craft, craft a headline for a sales page, really any page but specifically on a sales page, like, you don't want to have Steve's got a massive chunk of text here, like zoom expert, leading with yourself first and foremost, is not a good idea. You've got maybe three words to get their attention. And if you start out by saying that, oh, look at me, I'm the expert, why do they care? They don't, they just want to get them really quickly. So if you wanted to, at the top, in little letters, you could do zoom expert reveals.
Speaker 1:But I would save that for a different time. I would say, like, put the identity at the top. Or something like course creators, coaches, subject matter experts, thought leaders, whatever, or whatever whatever you want to call them. You could put that and then how to maybe drop even the how to like. That's superfluous, since you've only got a couple of minutes. You only got a couple of seconds. Rather, to catch their attention and just go straight to if you believe that this is what they can actually get from this make more sales by skyrocketing and engagement and banishing zoom fatigue is far better headline. And then, underneath it, even if you've tried every trick in the book which I would be more specific on, like what is that?
Speaker 2:trick in the book yeah, trick in the book now sucks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a little one of my least. My least favorite called the action ever is sign up for ticks trip, sign up for tricks and tricks. There it is. I could not say it. I hate it. Why, like tips and tricks? We don't. We don't. We can do better than that now we can.
Speaker 2:We can. Yeah, we're better than that. All right, that's cool, that's that's that's important, that's important to dial in, if it's the first thing that people, if the first thing that people see right 100% to have the big, what's the big promise skyrocketing.
Speaker 1:I mean, what's your price point? Can we say that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like $500. $500. It's a. It's a self. It's a self directed. It's one of my self directed universe programs. Your 500 AUD I was thinking maybe some sweet US dollars for a change.
Speaker 1:All right, so more like 750 AUD.
Speaker 2:Like 750 AUD and hey, if you're in the US right now you want to come on a like a ball, a holiday. Australia's 50% off at the moment for you, us folk.
Speaker 1:I'll keep that in mind.
Speaker 2:Message from our sponsor, the Australian Tourism Board.
Speaker 1:I'm from Australia.
Speaker 2:You might accidentally get killed.
Speaker 1:Why would you maybe get by a giant spider? There's a song.
Speaker 2:There's a song that sings all the animals that can kill you. It's called come to Australia, you might accidentally get killed. That's this.
Speaker 1:That's the chorus that you've mentioned this song before.
Speaker 2:It's a fantastic song.
Speaker 1:So big promise and then underneath it you can do even if or without, or something like that.
Speaker 1:Okay, but if you, if you don't capture their attention in a half a second, you, like you're going to, you're going to lose them, they're going to go straight back. Maybe some color to highlight certain words that you want, and I would argue that this needs to be like so pimp, pimp you zoom now. Pimp your zoom now, changing words there. Pimp your zoom out, like put the button where they don't even have to scroll. If I have to move, if I have to on my desktop computer, if I have to scroll to get it wrong, if I have to really.
Speaker 2:The button has to be within, non above the fold, above the fold.
Speaker 1:So that's what? That? If you have to scroll to get to something that means it's below the fold, you want to keep it above the fold.
Speaker 1:I would also argue you don't need your menu on a sales page. I don't want them to be able to navigate someplace else. They can use the back button if they got there some other way. But I would take the menu off. Yeah, if you're going to have a payment plan, I would maybe put the prep like it's a good price for something. It's relatively low. So if you've got like a three payments of three payments of 200 or six payments of whatever it's going to be, so you can say get started, get started for 200.
Speaker 1:Because remember when we talked about buyer types for your decisive desys, oh, desi, if they see that I don't read sales, I'm going to be like I am that buyer type. 90% of the time I don't read sales pages, like I need the headline. And if that looks interesting to me, I'm going to click the button to see go to just go to the checkout usually. So we want to make that easy for people. And then the first few sections button, next session section button, next section button, so that you've got a button each place If they you know I've read enough, okay, I've read enough, I'm ready to go. I've read enough, I'm ready to go. And then once you get into like the real meat, then yeah, you don't have to put a button every section. I want to go to the actual funnel. I was not planning on going through your whole sales page. That's a lot, no that's good.
Speaker 2:I was going to say you, we're not good, we haven't got all day.
Speaker 1:We have not got all day. Okay, steve's funnel plan is you're going to have an ad or a post. I would argue those are two different files.
Speaker 2:See folks, this is what happens when you get master involved. Here I am thinking I can just sneak in a double funnel into one. No A double funnel. Nothing gets past Adrienne.
Speaker 1:I mean as a general rule, if you have to put a slash, like you did probably, it's two separate things Add or post to a landing page. They buy the program. That's really advantageous Upsell.
Speaker 2:It's my positive attitude. You are going to land by land by your array of optimism and sunshine.
Speaker 1:They buy the program, then upsell a zoom review. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2:So they can upload their most recent or favorite zoom session that they've just run. Maybe it's a work in our masterclass and then we'll review it. Tell me exactly exactly where they're going wrong.
Speaker 1:Where they're going. Will that be a pre-recorded thing?
Speaker 2:Discuss this.
Speaker 1:Like you're going to loom it to them. Are you going to do it? Live with them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll do. I'll do a loom. Yep, I'll do a loom, step by step, and I'll also run it through a few pieces of our tech that analyzes the word speed, utterances, structure, engagement, all that sort of stuff Fill a word use.
Speaker 1:Okay, what's the price of the upsell?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's like another like $200 or $300 to get that done.
Speaker 1:I would personally split. Test this if you have the capability of doing that Split test it, love it. Split. Test it where it's an upsell versus version B is an order bump.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, order bump Nice.
Speaker 1:Because it's not. You're in a weird, you're in a gray area For people who are making money a $500 thing and then a $200 thing, like it's just not that much for someone who's already making money. So is it like would you classify? I would classify this as low ticket.
Speaker 2:I have very little, that's low ticket, low ticket for sure.
Speaker 1:But it's not low enough ticket that people are just going to like just go buy it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, low ticket for sure.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I would split, test that two different ways and then at some point that just it's not scalable because it takes your personal time.
Speaker 2:Not that everything is scalable, correct.
Speaker 1:And then you've got a second funnel on here.
Speaker 2:We're again chucked it on there. Sprinkling of funnels.
Speaker 1:Sprinkling of funnels. So another add or post to a workshop or masterclass, pre-recorded Yep To a landing page and upsell the zoom review. Which one do you want to actually go through?
Speaker 2:What do you think would be most effective?
Speaker 1:I would say the second one that has the workshop and masterclass.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too. Me too, I think it proofs in the pudding right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you should be able to demonstrate, Demonstrate yeah, absolutely. Demonstrate, not capacity. I can't think of the word, it's fine Capability. Capability Demonstrate capabilities yeah, it's fine. It's not the word I was going for. It's fine. So if you were going to pre-record it, I would test it live first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, part of me was thinking that I might just do like rolling weekly, like a live weekly session.
Speaker 1:Until you hit the numbers you want, and then yeah, until it proves to me that it's done.
Speaker 2:I would have, like I love, I froth, like you over delivering stuff live. So it could just be. It could just be something that runs, you know, weekly, monthly.
Speaker 1:It's there and then at the end of it it's like oh, you want to know how to do it like this Come and come and pimp your zoom with me. Whoa, come and pimp your zoom with me. Yeah, I mean either way. The question becomes where are you getting this renewable lead source?
Speaker 2:That's the answer yes is the answer. Yes, okay, yeah, I think it has to come from I think it has to come from like a, like an add source of paid traffic of some kind, of some kind for sure.
Speaker 1:So I want to go forward, to go backwards, because you know I like to reverse it, go, go go. So traffic leads clients, that's. That's the order. So, trying to figure out what is your traffic source, what traffic sources do you currently have? You don't. You don't have an email list. Is that correct? Yeah, see this is.
Speaker 2:See, this is this is a really cool. Like I was, I'm, I'm a pump for this because, yeah, I don't, I don't, because this bad boy right here learn awesome, we, we, we don't roll in the, we don't roll in the low ticket slash. You know, we're moving, we're moving part of our stuff into the, into the expert world. The experts that we've worked with and the coaches, consultants that we've worked with have been more on a done for you capacity as opposed to a. You know, let's go out and offer this thing this month or this thing next month. So yeah, no email list.
Speaker 1:To be clear, I wasn't trying to drag you on that. Like you work primarily. No, it's important.
Speaker 2:It's important to call it out because, yeah, it's important to call it out because we've just never prioritized it. So it's always difficult when we get asked the traffic question, because the answer is we don't like, we like, we're not actively. We're not actively pushing traffic anywhere, we're just we. We're fortunate that we get approached a lot for work.
Speaker 1:You do, and then people refer you because you're so great. I'm all right. You're modest but at times self deprecating. What did I say to you a couple of days ago? Would you just let me give you a compliment?
Speaker 2:Just take the okay, Shoot, shoot, but yeah, no traffic. So so no, no, which then correct me if I'm wrong. If there is no like current traffic source, then we have to, we have to pay for it. Pay for it.
Speaker 1:Or borrow it. Or borrow it oh borrowing influences easier than having getting it yourself. I love, love, yeah, I mean you've. You've either got to buy leads, own leads, borrow them so you could like you could do you go on other people's podcasts like it's a slower form of it could be it doesn't have to be slow Like if you were to get in front of a pre-built audience that's already pretty big. You could do affiliates, you could have partnerships, you could do all kinds of things.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:But you've got to have a. I mean, this is true of no matter what price point you sell, but particularly if you're trying to sell a $500 thing, like the name of the game is constant traffic or it's never going to go anywhere. And this is. I did a three part. This is fairly recent. I did a three part series on this podcast on passive revenue and she's like it's just so, it's sound. Passive revenue, it sounds really attractive and oh, it's easy, like you, just you build your course and then, if you build it, they will come and it's so not for this reason First of all, you need a constant pool of leads and second, it takes just as much.
Speaker 1:It takes a different type of effort, but still just as much effort as it would to sell a $5,000 thing or a $50,000. I would argue it's a $50,000 thing, that it is a $500 thing, especially today. Yeah, sell a $500 thing. Today is, I would say, one of the harder price points to sell. Good for you, great news for you.
Speaker 2:Well, again, it's news, right, it's news which means yeah, after testing, it might be that it might be better to add some human stuff to it and bump it into a high ticket. I don't know, but our goals at the moment, our goals at the moment is that we want to have, as a business, we want to have like two we've got two or three programs that sort of feed into our biggest stuff. So like PIM my Zoom, pim my Zoom is like the entry level gateway into like getting better at your curriculum, getting better, like improving your programs and stuff, because the skill, yeah, the skill is the entry level into that part of the Learn Awesome universe.
Speaker 1:Is that the intention of this program? You want them to move from Pimp my Zoom to Probably Pimp.
Speaker 2:My Zoom means an influence. Yeah, we were talking about the other program that we've got, right. Is it's like then? It's now you've got that foundation skill, now you can go hunting for the rest of them, and that's a bigger program. So, yeah, it's more sort of like a feeder and a thing for us to have some constant people coming into our world.
Speaker 1:Is that the primary objective? Oh look.
Speaker 2:I'd love to just like drink some Kool-Aid from Brother Brunson and be like one funnel away to a billion dollars of like Pimp my Zoomites, but I understand the reality a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if your end goal is to push people into the influence lab, which is considerably higher ticket and a long it's a year long yeah, I would argue that this is probably not the product. What People I know I would look at something like you could. This could be a stepping stone if they're not ready for it, but I would do if you're gonna have a paid product, I would do something that's more like 50 bucks, oh yeah, 30, 40, 50 bucks, something that is going to. So we've talked about, we've talked to Fair Share, about like money market and who is. So if you look at that segment of who's right for the influence lab, then what is the thing that? Because when you're talking high ticket, like there is value in having freebies but there's also value in having straight off the bat a paid product.
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 1:So if you can figure out, like what is what does, because you've got a few people who are like ready that you are just ready to reel in for the influence, lab tears and all that, like what is the thing that they would probably just like not even think about, just buy for 50 bucks because I don't know that this would be that thing, that they would just let me just go buy this thing for 500. Am I really rating on your parade?
Speaker 2:Dude. But that's the point. I think that's. What's so cool about this is, oh man, imagine if there was a way for oh wait, it's service driven scaling. It's our secret project that's launching soon.
Speaker 1:A secret project, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you get your parade reigned on. That should be a service that Adrian offers, that's gonna go on our sales page.
Speaker 2:I don't think we're gonna have a sales page, you get your parade reigned on by Adrian.
Speaker 2:No, I think it's super valuable, right? Because, like I was ready to be like yeah, I'm gonna pump some budget into ads and like hope for the best, that pimping zooms was gonna be something that's really cool. I guess it's really hard and maybe the listeners or people that are tuned into this can relate, right? Do you ever and this is me coming at it in my area of lower expertise Like if this was course creation? And this is probably why I know that this is why I am enjoying this so much, because I know the true value of the education that this program provides right, I understand that the curriculum is fucking electric. It will nail like learning objective after learning objective and people will dramatically like improve as a result. That's something that I know and I think a lot of creators also have that belief that they know, and I guess the feeling that I feel because you've taught me how to feel, adrian, that's what you've done, you know time to make me feel again If I was to put it into a feeling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like if I was to put it into a feeling it's sort of like frustration that why can't people just see it for how good it is? But that's not the job of the curriculum to do and I think this is the beautiful, like Venn diagram appearing again is this is the job of messaging and marketing to help, like, figure out what's going to be the best way to make people understand. And what you've told me is like oh, maybe it's not a full blown program, Maybe it's just a hey, here's the Zoom settings that you need to make your Zooms better. And it's done like some super quick and easy to get them, to get them interested or get them in or meet them where they're at.
Speaker 1:Very very cool. I mean there's a time and a place for it. But it would be like if if it were going to be part of a larger, larger funnel, where it was going to be. You know, you went from freebie to $20 thing to now come to the webinar and I'm going to pitch you this $500 thing and then, off the back end of that, we're going to go into the bigger thing you could. But like you don't really have the time, I also don't think you need to. Ok, interesting, like that's a big funnel to build.
Speaker 1:Yeah because you need something. If you want to take, like I would just bypass the need to go from potentially freebie but maybe not freebie into into something low ticket and to come to the masterclass now by this $500 thing, when you could have just knocked the middleman out and gone straight for the straight, for the thing that you actually want.
Speaker 2:Yeah right.
Speaker 1:And then you can. If they don't want it, then you could downsell them. This and that's a. That's a separate conversation for a separate day. But if someone, if someone's buying behavior is such that they would be considering, can you, are you willing to say the price of the bigger program?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like what's what's 500 times 12? Six grand.
Speaker 1:I'm going to get this out.
Speaker 2:Six grand yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So someone's willing to pull the trigger on a six grand, even though 500 a month is not, like that's not, that's not huge, but the over a length of time it's. That's a commitment If they're willing to pull the trigger on that. Like, do they need a $500 bridge to get there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good. That's a really good point. It's a really good point and it would fit like it'd be in the. It'd be in the lab anyway, it'd be a trail in the lab.
Speaker 1:So you could always like you've already got a sales page built for it. So this is what I would test first. Again, I could be completely wrong on this. You have to test it.
Speaker 2:But it's right, because yet to two people's opinions here different. But what Adrian said but it was made a lot of sense is you need to test it. You need the data. The data will like, the people will speak the people will speak, they will tell you.
Speaker 1:But where I think, where, where I would have, where I would go as a starting point is Let tweak your sales page a little bit so that it's a little more dialed in.
Speaker 1:Yeah you can talk about that a different day if you want, and Then put an email sequence on the back end of it. For like, if someone just happens to come across your website or you've got a PDF and then you leave them to it and just let that ride. But if then you've got an email sequence on the back end of it that if someone purchases it you say I will apply that $500 to this bigger program because this is already lives inside of it You're already going to get anyway. So I'm just gonna apply what you paid to the bigger program. You took the payment plan.
Speaker 1:I'll take 200 bucks off or whenever you're ready to whatever whatever that looks like and, on the other end of that, figure out what Small little offer you're gonna spend more you're gonna. You're gonna spend more in ads You're gonna be. I mean, I would argue that with a $500 product, you're probably gonna break even anyway. Even with a $500 product, you're probably only gonna break even. So If you've got the right upsells in the right places, like may, or the right bump offers or whatever, like you could maybe make your ads Profitable on the front end. But I start it that way, and now it's time for another. Get to know Steve and Adrian.
Speaker 2:So we were talking about Christmas movies. What is your go-to? What is your go-to top three Christmas movies?
Speaker 1:Okay, well, definitely Christmas vacation, because that's oh, that's where we started with this Christmas vacation. Absolutely number one top three Christmas movies. You know there are a lot of Christmas movies I just don't like. Well.
Speaker 2:I wasn't the question.
Speaker 1:I know it wasn't. I mean a Christmas story like we would. We would watch that. My dad's name is Ralph, so he would hate. It would be like Ralphie he hated it.
Speaker 1:So a Christmas story has some nostalgia around it. When I was a kid this is not a Christmas movie but when I was a kid, on Christmas we would go was Christmas Eve, we would go my grandma's best friend Nell, we would go to her house and we would every Christmas Eve we would watch the Wizard of Oz. It's not a Christmas movie. Can I pick diehard?
Speaker 2:I was gonna say is diehard there? Because diehard is the unofficial.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would pick diehard. All right, let's get back to it. What is, what's something it's at that price point? Is there a template? Is there a? How can you make their life the eat as easy as as easy as humanly possible? I just don't know how to speak English today. How could you make their life super easy? The thing that I keep hearing you say is the thing that they really want is to be a speaker. Oh yeah, influence lab, yeah it's the holy grail.
Speaker 2:At the moment.
Speaker 1:Everyone wants to be a canine speaker, dude one wants to be a speaker, so Could you give them some type of Speaker, swipe files or something like what could you do preferably? What do you already have or what are you gonna have to build anyway that you could package up for our favorite numbers?
Speaker 2:3747 7th, the deadly 7th. Stupid 7th, deadly 7th. Yeah that's a, that's a. That's a good, that's a really good call there.
Speaker 1:That's a really good call it's a very good question for everyone because I know that the majority of people that I work with are selling high-ticket and High-ticket with the fit, so buying behavior changes all the time. So we could, we could have the same conversation a year from now and I would say I don't know that we should do it this way, because behavior will change. People want really high-ticket right now. Is the is the generality here really high-ticket or low-ticket, so they can just dip their toes in?
Speaker 2:yeah, nice.
Speaker 1:They need to experience you somehow.
Speaker 2:So you could. What if it was a training? What if I just, what if I just ran a paid like a paid training?
Speaker 1:If you're gonna do it like a live training, yeah, at that point I would just make it free. Yeah, to be honest, and see how that converts, like you're gonna. It's gonna be cheaper ad cost for you to do it that way.
Speaker 2:Is that right? It's that, that, that what what is it? That's a really people gonna have that question?
Speaker 1:because I.
Speaker 2:If I have it, what influences ad cost? Is that the amount of friction? Is it the actual acquisition of data? So like, if I, if I'm getting someone to, if I'm getting someone to give me their name and email address, is it more expensive from an ads perspective than if I just show them a video without asking for details?
Speaker 1:Is that how it works. Definitely more expensive to get their information. So but can we reverse engineer? My favorite, of course, please. So we're going backwards, from Traffic leads conversions, we're gonna go conversions leads to traffic. So perfect world. How many, how many people would you convert in a month? How many people would you like to or from one one particular Live event?
Speaker 2:from one particular live event you want to send it.
Speaker 1:I want, I'm gonna look at, I'm gonna do some. Do some math with the difference between if you were doing just like a video conversion Versus if you were to get their email addresses Versus like a VSL, which VSL I wouldn't do unless you've got some real coins to put behind it, like Hang on, why would you do?
Speaker 2:why wouldn't you do VSL? Is that because of the cost of it? It's all. It's a conversion rate.
Speaker 1:Because the VS. Why would I not recommend the VSL unless you've got some real money to spend? Is that the question? It's going to cost you Enough to have to test it to get consistency through it that there's a really good chance that you would have to spend, that you would need to have Extra lying around ten grand before you really answer to that. You might not. You might be able to get the answer for a thousand or five thousand, but it's like you need to be prepared. Don't spend, don't. I'm a broken record on this. Don't spend money on Can afford to lose. So I wanted the VSL route. What it might cost in In theory, in land of theory, if you were to do a traditional Web and a webinar capture style where you're gonna do a master class, you're gonna get their name and email address and then if you were gonna do a low ticket offer into Get to it, get on a sales call with me sort of a deal.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:So how many people in a month? Assuming you're only gonna run one class in a month, yep, but so we can do so that we can do the low ticket item to like how many people in a month? Ideally, would you like to?
Speaker 2:talk to or turn into turn into.
Speaker 1:Turn into, turn into clients.
Speaker 2:Let's go Five to ten. So let's go five. Five's, a five's, the number that popped in my head first, and it's just me.
Speaker 1:I was just gonna say so seven, we just average that, so five, let's say five. So then do you know your call conversion rates?
Speaker 2:Yeah, 40% conversion on a call 40%.
Speaker 1:Do you think that that like are you all the way across the board? 40, or should we lower it a tad, since this is new?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say I'd be pretty confident. I'd be pretty confident on a call that it would stay 40 If you want to convert five people at 40%, that's 12 and a half people.
Speaker 1:So we're gonna round that to 13 to just to be safe. So you need to get 13 sales calls. You know 130 people, so 130 people would need to hear you say Book a call with me.
Speaker 2:People are you listening to this? This is no longer intimidating because when you know what to, measure.
Speaker 1:You know how to make it happen math, math, math. But that's people who show up. I'm gonna argue that that's people who show up live and watch your replay of something. So let's do this from the actual webinar first. I'm gonna argue that if you were doing that on a VLF, especially if it weren't gated, I would take that down to maybe 2 or 3%, like I'm gonna take that way further down. It's one guy did, yeah, yeah. So that would mean on the VSL side of things, let's say two and a half. Let's be generous. That's 520 people that would need to see it, watch it all the way through. That's not bad. Do you know your data on how many people tend to show up live or watch the replay?
Speaker 2:30 percent was my last one.
Speaker 1:So you would need to register. I'm going to say, to make this a round number, I'm going to say you need to register about 450.
Speaker 2:450 humans 450 humans.
Speaker 1:But now you've got that's solid and that's not that many. I'm going to say that that's probably optimistic, like I think that these numbers might be hot. If you could actually carry this all the way through, that would be fantastic. I think that you would potentially need more touch points to go from class to call, so you might need to think about like what's, what's some extra value you could sprinkle in. How are you going to nurture them so that they because conversion is not only like OK, I've got this one week period of time where I'm explaining this more for the people than for you. That's I'm not it's perfect.
Speaker 1:It's perfect. You know conversions can happen from that class months from the from the time. So how can you sprinkle in some extra, some extra magic there? So if you need 450 people to register, let's say, have you? Do you run often? Did you know your typical opt in page numbers, or shall we just use some?
Speaker 2:I look to see some industry. Let's just use some industry Industry averages.
Speaker 1:I'm going to say 25, 25 percent to cold. If I look at it, I could get you higher than that, but that's the plan.
Speaker 2:That's the plan. If this meeting, if this meeting goes well next week, then guess who's? Guess who's getting getting some money, getting a new client? Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:That's 1,800 page views. That's not so bad. So I'm going to say, if you put in, if you were prepared to put in 4,500, it would. It would make this make sense If you could get the numbers up all the way through. That would not be bad. To get a return of 6,000 times five is 30 grand.
Speaker 2:What.
Speaker 1:You spend 4,500 to make 30 grand.
Speaker 2:Not bad.
Speaker 1:Not bad the thing you have to be, the thing you have to consider is you would spend 4,500 that if everyone, if all five of those people, took the payment plan In the month, you would be making. You would spend 4,500 to make 2,500. So you would be at a loss. But as long as your attrition rate was hopefully nothing, hopefully zero so attrition rate is how many people drop off their payment plans Then you'd make it back in the long run. So then it would be your choice of what. I spend 4,500 to have to wait two months before you even start to see a return. I don't know if this is what you actually signed up for, but you did it.
Speaker 2:But it's pretty amazing, like look at that, look at what you got.
Speaker 1:You knew I was going to break out math You're going to take me to math, math land.
Speaker 1:You to math land, so that's so. 4,500 is the number on if you're going to run a live class, if you were going to do a VSL and you needed 520 people to see. So if you were doing a traditional VSL, you could be looking at anywhere. I'm going to speed this up a little bit because I know you got to go so typically you could be spending anywhere from 150 to $750 per call booked and if you need 13 of them if that was on the low side, 15 or 150 would be you could spend anywhere from nine, from two grand to 10 grand to have to make that back. That's why it's a crapshoot to run the money to like really put into it Now, doing it the way where you're not gating it.
Speaker 1:That's that's traditional VSL 520 people to opt in 20. Then you'd be spending about 5200. Let's say that's $10 per opt in. So again, it's a little more than the other way around. And if you wanted to save, you needed to be 5200 people and you're going to get page to page views. I think the number is all the way around. You're probably going to average somewhere around five grand, but it could be as low as two. It could be as high as 10. So you could wind up on the good, on the good side of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But also maybe not, and you're not going to know until you know.
Speaker 2:Super interesting.
Speaker 1:Super interesting. So if you did, if you went the low ticket, how much, how much money, how much do you want to, how much you want to charge for it? The low ticket option or if you went the low ticket option, yeah like the little, the little thing that solves their problem.
Speaker 2:Is that what you said? Yeah, yeah, like 50 bucks 47.
Speaker 1:50. 50. 50. Not not a seven. Would you have an order bump? Would there be a higher average cart value? Do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah maybe, maybe just an extra 20 bucks, something.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Let's just. Let's say your average cart value is maybe 55. Okay, go, completely theoretical, nice. So to get a purchase, you're probably looking at anywhere between 100 and $150 per purchase. So let's say, let's average that to 125. Oh, we've got to hang on. I'm ahead of myself. We have to reverse this the other way around. So if you want 13 sales calls, you're probably going to get hundreds. Let's, let's keep with 10 percent of them will convert. I think that that's maybe high, but let's keep that, since that's typically what you see. So you need 130 purchases in a month. Let's bump that to 150. Because I think it's low. Yeah, 150 purchases would cost you 125, would cost you 18,750. But if you had an average cart value of 55, you'd earn back 6,875. So it would cost you 11,875. So unless you had a higher cart value, I would not go that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, folks listen to that, Listen, listen to what's been going on. It sounds like a lot of numbers and stuff, but there's some cool. There are some really cool tidbits that McKenzie is going to make very easy for people to understand.
Speaker 1:Somehow, some way, somehow, someday. So the way what I just did in a we're going to try to condense this into a little capsule is so you have to figure out what's your traffic source, how many leads do you need in order to get however many conversions you want to get, and then we reverse engineer it how many conversions do you need? What's your average conversion rate? If you don't have historical data, like Steve had, then we can go by industry average, which you're pretty close to industry average. You're a little on, you're a little on the on the higher side, but you're pretty close to industry average. So that's great, and then just keep keep going backwards in percentage. So the way you would do that, if Steve said I want five people and I know that I convert about 40% on sales calls, then you would do five divided by point four, because that's 40%. So five divided by point four, and you just keep dividing by point one or point. Whatever your percentage is, you just divide by that and that's going to reverse engineer where you want to be.
Speaker 1:I've got a spreadsheet for this somewhere. Yeah, so the thing that makes the most, unless you, you could test a VSL and there are lots of different ways that you could try it. You could wind up hitting the lottery and that could be the if your messaging is chef's kiss, you could, you could. I mean to spend two or three grand to get 30 grand in sales.
Speaker 2:Amazing.
Speaker 1:I think in the long run that would be, that would be what the target for optimizing would be. But you know, traditional, like the most safe, the safest, most traditional way would be to run a free class. You came in with a sales page and a product funnel.
Speaker 2:I like to get off her and a reminder that it's not just because it's Low ticket doesn't mean it's better. It's better, that's. That's so cool man, that's that's so cool, I think.
Speaker 2:I think I think Pimp my Zoom is going to become a trail in the influence lab regardless. And now I think the influence is just now, the, the, the roads are going to lead there and it's just a case of, it's a case of which which roads can get there, but that's the one that's going to. That's going to be a lot easier to progress, people to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're. You're in a unique position. But if you are coming to me and you were, like you know, I'm in a corporate, I'm a corporate learning designer, I do this for a company and I want to start a business doing this, like there wouldn't be, I wouldn't have even let you come to this call talking about selling a $500 course. Yes, I would have if you were paying me for this anyway, like, had you, if we were just like having a meeting, then I would have done the magic to get you to this point. But like there, it's just not.
Speaker 1:You're going to, you need a lot of time and you need money to test it. If you've got both you've got the resources, the time, the energy, the money or potentially, the people that can help you and you, it's worth it to you then, cool, go that way. You're in a unique position where you could, like you've already got a business that does quite well, so you've got some resources to invest if you wanted to go the other way. But given you have the influence lab and that's where you want to put people anyway, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to not do it. Let's do it like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm definitely yeah, it's definitely definitely a cool, a cool position to to play in, which, which explains why, which explains why it's never been something I've I've, I've needed to, I've needed to worry about doing, like the whole audience thing, the whole, the whole beta C business to customer is not something that I would say is something that I've ever played in. Well, it's always been B2B or B2B yeah, big business yeah, and that's, and that's where, that's where it works. It works for us to treat.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is B2B, the influence lab is B2B.
Speaker 2:Oh, it is, yeah. Yeah, this is the first like this is the, this is the, this is better, it's a, it's a, it's a different B.
Speaker 1:B2 a little B. B2 a little B, b2, b2f. Business to freelancer yeah business to expert B2B.