The Scaling Lounge: Business Strategy • Operations • Team

Course + Coaching Program Engagement Mistakes You Don’t Even Know You’re Making - with Steve Corney

October 19, 2023 Adriane Galea Episode 88
The Scaling Lounge: Business Strategy • Operations • Team
Course + Coaching Program Engagement Mistakes You Don’t Even Know You’re Making - with Steve Corney
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

When it comes to the transference of knowledge to the learners in your programs and events, being a good facilitator is just as important (if not more so!) as being an expert in your field. The trick is, many experts feel like they’re doing a great job at facilitation when, in fact, they’re….not.


Today we’re reviewing the mistakes you don’t even know you’re making when you’re ‘unconsciously competent’ at your craft. Engagement is such an important part of whether or not your learners are achieving the outcomes you’ve promised them - a HUGE factor in their decision to stick with you for the long-game. 


Listen in as Steve Corney walks us through an elevated learner engagement strategy designed to increase participation in events like you’ve never seen before –  the holy grail that every course designer is after. 


Quick overview of what we cover:


  • What to do when you ask for audience participation/engagement and it’s a no-go
  • Why it’s short-sighted to assume that authority and thought leadership and unique perspective outweigh facilitator ability 
  • How to decide when to deliver content statically vs dynamically
  • Why how you make your future learners feel in the beginning MATTERS a ton (your knowledge alone won’t cut it if you’re trying to sell something)
  • How to use learner feedback to know whether you’re nailing the balance of expertise vs. facilitation
  • The best vehicle to deliver info to prevent zoom fatigue 
  • How to use ‘signposting’ in your event to deliver a pitch with integrity
  • What you can fall back on when your facilitator magic runs out
  • The number one sign that gives away peak engagement
  • The most strategic balance between teaching and engaging 

CHECK OUT STEVE + ADRIANE'S PROJECT: 

LISTEN TO MORE EPISODES WITH STEVE:

  • Episode 45, How Bro Marketers Have Destroyed Digital Learning 
  • Episode 55, Marketing With Integrity in a Post-Bropocalypse World 
  • Episode 63, The 5 Elements of a Successful Digital Sales Event Funnel, Part 1
  • Episode 73, Trust Isn't Enough to Sell Courses or Group Coaching Programs...
  • Episode 74, Delivering Outcomes With Mad Respect...
  • Make More Money + Sales with your Established Course or Coaching: Episode 76, part 1;  Episode 78, part 2; Episode 80, part 3

RESOURCES: 

  • Click here to join Adriane’s $7 Marketing Strategy Membership
  • Click here to get on the waitlist for Sustainable Growth Lab
  • Click here to work with Adriane and the Soulpreneur Agency
  • Book a call with Soulpreneur to grow your business

CONNECT W/ STEVE: 

Speaker 1:

The difference between a seasoned facilitator and a rookie is I'm just going to stop. Let's stop everything and give me two minutes. Folks, I'm just going to read the chat, silence, or? Hey, here's a question for you to think about. Here's an activity on the whiteboard for you to do. While you guys are doing that, I'm just going to catch up on the chat and make sure that I've got all those things there.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the scaling lounge a podcast for established service-based business owners who believe in working smarter, resting often, playing always and dreaming bigger. I'm your host, adrienne Gallia, and I want to help you create time, financial and lifestyle freedom by scaling with systems, strategy and the support of a team, so that your business is able to grow, with or without you. Let's start with the question of how do you think you can do that? How do you think you can do that without?

Speaker 1:

you. Let's get to it. What are we talking about today?

Speaker 2:

What are we? We're talking about increasing some learner engagement. Learner engagement, you say Learner engagement strategies.

Speaker 1:

Whoa.

Speaker 2:

Because what you're going to start hearing us talk about in the coming weeks is we've already started to talk about this is there is more to being able to grow your business as someone who is a learning-based business owner. If you were a coach, if you're a consultant, if you're an expert of whatever kind, you are selling knowledge to your people. There's so much more to growing your business than just getting good at marketing and sales. That's the baseline for your business to function. You have to learn how to market and sell. Hopefully, you're doing a good job at communicating the knowledge that people are paying you for, but at some point it's so much more than that. Your fulfillment and delivery is so extraordinarily important Because if you don't have it, as we've talked about many times, it's going to be really hard to retain people and it's costing money, like it costs you money because you're leaving a lot of money on the table and all sorts of things. And we're going to go more into why launching is maybe not working the way that you want it to to grow your business, because there's more to it than that, and so we're going to bridge into some of that with some of this learner engagement stuff.

Speaker 1:

It's super cool because the landscape has changed so much that you're educating. So people will be like I don't have learners until they've bought something from me. But how have they bought something? They've learned something from you. That's the way that this world is going now is to build that no-like trust, respect. You're usually like previously, all you had to do was put out a cool headline in a snake oil sales mini webinar and that's it You're in. But now the world is demanding that hey, show me what you got, Teach me something. So your launch event, whatever that vehicle is, is going to be educationally grounded. So you're going to have learners there. You're also going to have them in your program as well. So, yeah, thinking about that and thinking about it from that perspective, that, yeah, I need to engage my learners at all stages of the journey Really, really valuable.

Speaker 2:

And yes, and the people are taking longer to buy on average, which is totally fine, and the ones whom you served the most well, the well is the best. Well, well, you know, they're a lot more likely to get them back because you are simultaneously marketing to them while you are selling. If all you're doing is trying to sell them something which is the style of you know, the click funnily and whatever the way that webinars have sort of shaped into at this point, is they call it marketing but in reality, like it's, so it's. We don't have to get into a whole thing around semantics of this, but it's, you know, it's so much more from the camp of sell, sell, sell and the marketing piece of it is not there building in that long term relationship so that eventually, when someone is ready to buy, you are the person that makes the most sense because you've you've established that relationship with them and not just taken 90 minutes of their life and given them really nothing once they think about it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2:

So I'm going to start the super open ended, since you like to open these with open ended questions. For me is how do people get more participation?

Speaker 1:

What is participation dude.

Speaker 2:

What is?

Speaker 1:

participation.

Speaker 2:

The excellent question how would you define that?

Speaker 1:

You got to, you got to think about. You got to think about the point and the purpose of of what you're doing. Like transference of knowledge is not a static. It's not a static process If you asterisk. It's not a static process if you want it to be effective. End of podcast. Right, Can we just end it there, but don't sound like that shit. And we are out.

Speaker 2:

That's it. That's the mic drop.

Speaker 1:

That's the mic drop. Yeah, it's like, if you want it. Yeah, transference of knowledge, education is not a static process. So, yeah, I think I think the notion. Yeah, of course, I think you need to appreciate and understand that at various stages of your of your process, you need to, you need to make your audience or your learners participants in the learning itself. So it's not an opportunity for you to just get on your soapbox and just talk at people. I mean, people do, and I would also then say that those people are the same people that probably have low engagement rates, because you don't have the luxury now to just bombard and smash people with static content and static knowledge, because that's the difference between, say, your course, your program, and me going on Google or YouTube and finding the information myself. The vehicle's out there, but many, as the learner, I have to be incredibly motivated to be willing to sit through someone talking at me for a lot of time.

Speaker 2:

A thousand percent, especially when you can see that they're going to follow the same format as all the rest. How long would you say the intro should be the intro to what. Like hi, I'm Adrienne, I'm going to be, I'm going to be chatting with you today about these things.

Speaker 1:

That's it. How long was that?

Speaker 2:

Like 10 seconds, I'll tell you that's it 10 seconds.

Speaker 1:

I think it's. Yeah, intro intros are really interesting, right? Because depending on the school, depending on the school that you've been taught, you're either going to do 50 minute intros or you're going to do one minute ones. I think it depends on where you're at Like, if, if, if your audience haven't, if this isn't inside your program, then you might need to do a little bit more of an intro. So maybe a couple of minutes. But if they're in your program, you have one topic in your program and it sits in the like hey, before you get started, like, check this out, you can have a whole. You can have a whole topic to talk about yourself. Just bury it somewhere in the course. But don't get upset when you go and do your course analytics and you find out that it's the least viewed or the least amount of content watched. Is that going to be? Is going to be that topic? Because you're talking about yourself and people are there to learn what you've got in your head. So, again, how could you make your introduction relevant to your learners and give it to them in a way that's meaningful to them? My answer is don't do one Like, just don't, don't bother, just just go. Hey, I'm Steve, I'm you, I'm your instructor, you've you're in the tent because you know of me or you've heard of me. Here's my history, here's my CV, here's my experience. But you know what I care more about you. So would it be okay if we just got straight into it, chucker number one or a high five emoji or a hell yeah in the chat, because I'd want to just give you as much time today as possible.

Speaker 2:

There you go.

Speaker 1:

There's your intro, right.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I like that intro better. Let's just get into it, especially if you are ever planning on having someone watch this. That's not live.

Speaker 1:

Oh, oh.

Speaker 2:

Ugh.

Speaker 1:

That's the worst. You gotta think about that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, to have to sit through, to have to sit through a whole long introduction. I just had a conversation with someone this week on revamping, like moving what they've been very successful in with organic marketing in their course and now I want to start doing some ads with it. And they teach YouTube, yep. And I started asking questions like how long is your webinar? What's your funnel look like right now, etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. And the answer was a 90 minute. This is a 90 minute webinar. Converts this thing? Hang on, hang on. This is. This is extraordinary. It's currently converting at almost 20%, whoa, but it's 90 minutes long and it so this person was not. I was like I really want to know how long it takes someone from point of hey, I know who you are too, I'm going to buy something from you, and they don't have that kind of data, but think that it's like probably like six months to a year. So I could see you know at some point that that far down the road someone's got enough buy-in to listen to an hour and a half thing and I was like, okay, an hour and a half, how long do you speak at them in the beginning about your journey on YouTube and the look I got was just like. You already know, it's too long Like, so we're looking at cutting it down to like 30 minutes beginning to yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, that'll be a cool test to see, to see what happens there.

Speaker 2:

I think it will be a cool test, but like a nevergreen webinar 90 minutes. So I heard this big statement the other day and it was interesting because there was. They put some data behind it, they did some testing around, they took away the chat feature and their live zoom.

Speaker 1:

What yeah?

Speaker 2:

And apparently it converted better for that and this is not my advice at all to anyone to do that. This was someone who is very established I won't say who it is, but someone who has a really established business and was talking about how disabled the chat function on zoom and I don't know. Apparently people were like more, it took away a lot of the, took away a lot of the, just like inter interpersonal chatter, banter, whatever, and I don't know. Apparently it converted better. What are your thoughts on that? How? Let's talk about that? No fair.

Speaker 1:

I don't think. I don't think the chat is, you know, so amazing that you couldn't get rid of it. But then it comes back to your ability to facilitate, right. So engagement and engagement and interactivity are the two things that the chat sort of provides in a in a live zoom sort of situation or insert whatever tool you have here. So when, when it comes to sort of like engagement, it's like how are you, how are you getting the audience to sort of participate or feel like they're involved in the in the session? So if you take the chat away, that's a like for, for a non seasoned facilitator, that is a rookie move, because you lose, like your, you lose your ability to just do it instantly just by asking a question and allowing someone to physically type the answer. Cool.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, I'm not against it.

Speaker 1:

And I can see. I could see why. I could see why it would work for someone who could control the audience and get the audience to participate in other, in other ways. But I wouldn't mind watching it to see if it's like cause, the trap that you run then is that, with no opportunity for the audience to participate in the session, you're just a talk fest now. So either you're talking about stuff that people are super motivated to hear, and that's enough, but the chances of that or the likelihood of that being the case today is very, very is very, very low. So if someone's doing that, fair play to them, but you're taking away a massive chunk and opportunity to use the chat correctly and have that yeah, have that audience participation because you you like using the chat. Look, I, yeah, I love using the chat. I love using anything where you're able to get the learner to participate. Okay, yeah, cause the chat, the chat. Fundamentally, what does the chat do? The chat allows the learners to tell you whether or not they're there or not, whether or not they're actually participating. So, like you might think, oh hey, what do you think about this? Folks Like put, put something in the chat. If you've got, if you've got a hundred people on the call and five people put something in the chat, what are you going to do? Like, is that good? No, that's that's. That's bad. That's bad. That means you've got a bunch of passengers who don't feel comfortable sharing or participating in your session. Now, the unsophisticated facilitator will just keep rolling and be like hey, I've got five like friends here that are like really making me feel good about myself. Great. Like you can adjust, or you should adjust, on the fly and go hey, what's going on? Like I've got 5% of you and you participating. What's wrong? Is your chats working? Is something like do you not want to use the chat? Do you want to use something else? Like, do you want to try something? Like what's what's going on here? I need some feedback because, hey, it's not okay. It's not okay that you're here for the next 60 minutes or 30 minutes and just just sit here and I want you to get the most out of this. I care I need you to like participate, give me some more love and then you might get like some more there. But you see, hopefully people hear the difference is it's like it's a ballsy move to stop dead in your like rehearsed launch event presentation program. That's live. You don't think this has only happened. Live and actually like talk to the people and say, hey, I've recognized that what I'm saying isn't really landing. Is that correct? Is that? Is that true? Let me know, because I already know this stuff. But I may have like miss, I may have misplaced this, I may have put this at a level that's just incorrect and it's not hitting with you the way that I'm expecting it to, or it's hit previously with other people. Tell me why in the chat and let me. Let me re spin it because I can do that for you. I'm happy to do that for you, massive man, if people I've seen people do that when I've been on sessions and it's like mad respect to you as a facilitator to be able to do that True expertise right? That shows that you're a master of your craft. If you're able to recut it on the fly based on feedback from the audience, yeah 100%.

Speaker 2:

That's I mean. In my opinion, that's the. That's the mark of a teacher when you're able to communicate knowledge in whatever way someone needs to hear it. To be able to just flip something on the fly, that's a teacher Totally.

Speaker 1:

Totally. Yeah, we had this conversation with a guy named Kyle who's who lives on the other side of our country, which may as well be in another universe, right, but we were talking about it in it from a networking perspective. So we went to an online networking event and someone someone at this event they get a 10 minute presentation to teach you something and this person didn't share a screen, they didn't ask any questions in the chat, they just, literally, like one little small window and on a sea of a hundred, just talked to Addis for 10 minutes and I was out. I was out in the first 30 seconds and him and I were both talking about that exact fact, right? Hey, just because you like the sound of your own voice and you think that you've, you've got the floor and you've got like you've, you've physically been gifted 10 minutes to talk at people, it doesn't mean that what you say, in the way that you say it, while it may work for you in your head, you need to be mindful of. Hey, I'm noticing on the zoom cameras that everyone's multitasking right now. What have I done? What have I done wrong? Like, let me fix it. What would you like to hear about? Is this boring, you Like, because if it is just answer yes in the chat and like, we'll change it up, balls he moved it. Balls he moved.

Speaker 2:

That's powerful. The Victor goes to the spoils right, like if you're, if you're capable of doing that would you say that there's a domino effect around that, that like, if you can get just a couple people to start talking, and then that my mentor, my mentor's important.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's, that's, that's really cool, like. But I think that also then comes down to your skills as a facilitator and recognizing that the knowledge that you're going to share on this insert live thing here, that's only one piece of the puzzle. So your knowledge, part a, your ability to facilitate, part B and I would argue every day of the week that I could, I could out facilitate a lot of subject matter experts. I was going to say all of them, but there's always a few unicorns. But every, every time, I meet with clients who say I'm really engaging or my sessions are really really like hyper engaging. And I had one recently and it was they run live events in the, in the finance space, and this person said yeah, the only reason people like we don't want to do evergreen stuff or digital stuff is because I'm such a great facilitator, I'm so engaging and I'm like what, what, what, what makes you say that Like what, what techniques do you use to be engaging? Oh, I'm just a really engaging person, okay, so can I have an example of like, what sort of technique would you use at the start of your session to engage your audience? Oh, I'm just so engaging, hmm, okay. So I had a chat after to the other part partner of this business and just said listen, I could become the subject matter expert in your business in a week and then I could out facilitate your lead facilitator with my eyes closed, because they believe that because they're so smart and they're an expert in their field, that's enough to make them a good facilitator and engaging. So I'm engaging as a facilitator because I am the best and smartest person in the room. Wrong.

Speaker 2:

Oh, hang on, hang on. Okay, no, I'm going to let you finish the thought, and then I want to unpack this.

Speaker 1:

That's it Wrong Full stop, like just because you're the smartest person in the room, it doesn't make you a good facilitator. It does not mean your session will be good for the audience. It'll actually. Most likely, if you're one of those people, it'll be the opposite.

Speaker 2:

If you're one of those people, as in, you think you're the best and you come in with that ego. What do you mean when you say you're one of those?

Speaker 1:

It could be ego yeah, it could be ego. Or you could genuinely just believe that, like, yeah, hey, I'm really engaging. But then I'm going to come out you with data. I'm going to be analyzing the data of your session.

Speaker 2:

You pung out with me too long, but I mean, at what point does authority and unique perspective and thought leadership around the subject matter come into play? Because I mean, does it come into play if you are teaching people who are a little bit further along, that are a little bit more advanced? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

That's a perfect world.

Speaker 2:

I think that I would want to go to a session with someone who has really fantastic facilitator skills, but also to be able to go listen to someone speak in a way that's not just going to be like I could have Googled this.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, that's a really good point. That's why there's two parts to this right. There's your expertise and your facilitation skills. You need to have both. Some of the best sessions I've been to are ones that I've paid for an extension of my knowledge. Shock, horror, shock, horror. Steve goes and learns about facilitation from facilitators. I'd sit there around the campfire and just listen to these people. They wouldn't need to, but they're going to engage me anyway. It's just default that these people know how to capture my attention and allow me to participate in the session. But yeah, definitely your point about further along is your audience, further along in your subject matter. The further along the audience is, the more willing they'd be to sit and listen and be static as opposed to dynamic. We're going to talk about that in a minute today as well. But, yeah, I think the more motivated, the more interested, the more sophisticated knowledge base your learner has, the more they're prepared, like you said, to say, hey, I'm going to just sit and let you talk to me and let you tell me about your expertise, tell me your stories, because that's going to be interesting. But I would also take that those people that are be giving that expertise would have some really good ways to facilitate that session too.

Speaker 2:

This is this next question I'm asking purely for selfish reasons, because I would like to know. This for me is how do you reverse, engineer, how much of that to do, based on what outcome you want to get from your session Is?

Speaker 1:

that what I think.

Speaker 2:

I like to reverse engineer.

Speaker 1:

That's how? Yeah, for sure. So if you're doing this to market to people like, if you're doing this as a marketing exercise as part of your launch, right then I would argue that you would want to facilitate more than you be the expert. You'd want to actually create a really cool experience, because chances are, chances are for a lot of our clients, and I think about a lot of my clients now and a lot of the people that we work with. Yeah, you're an expert in your field, but where is the starting base of your audience slash, future learners? That's the point where you need to. That's the point that you need to play right. You will establish yourself and be demonstrating yourself as an expert based on how you make people feel during that launch event session. So feel is a very nuanced thing and it's really challenging to find that line or to find that balance. But because feeling is involved, you need to involve them in the process and in the adventure. So, by virtue of that, there is a high element of facilitation importance. You need to have a good experience for them. You're. Knowledge alone won't cut it.

Speaker 2:

I think that was your mic drop. Whatever you said earlier, you were like okay, we can be done now. I think that was your mic drop. Okay, all right, but I want to clarify what you were saying, because you said if you're trying to sell something, you're probably better off being the facilitator than being the expert. Am I hearing you correctly when you said yeah, just try not?

Speaker 1:

to try not to try not to try not to say it, try not to put them on a scale where it's sort of like if you facilitate well, you're no longer an expert. Like it's not. It's not that, it's not. Sort of like I'm robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's like if the audience requires some motivation to cross into your world and pay you for your knowledge, then you should have a more for higher facilitated event or activity or session than if you were delivering a masterclass to your graduates or alumni who want to now pick your brain about how to move to your level of capability in an industry. Like that would be, like that would be. That would be the difference when you come into the course. So let's say, okay. Then the next question which is logically getting put into the machine gun barrel is hey, so you facilitate your, your launch event or your launch program to get them into the tent. What do I do now that I've got them in there? It's a balancing act. Right, it's a balancing act because your program can't just be you downloading your expertise on people and hours at a time and our chunks, and we're going to talk about other ways to engage learners, which, in learner engagement and facilitation. They lay in the same world, but the way that you structure, the way that you choose to engage your learners, the way that you allow your learners to participate and own their learning journey is going to contribute to not only better outcomes for your learners, but also demonstrating that you are more than just a smart person that has a lot of expertise in your particular area. You'll get feedback that will be instead of it being oh Steve's a really smart dude and he knows his stuff. You will get feedback like the learning that I did with Steve was really good, so it was so good that I felt completely involved in the process. I was. I felt like I got to participate a lot during the learning and I still learn stuff. That's like that's. Another key thing that you'd look at is like your learner feedback, as to whether you're nailing that sort of balance between facilitation, experience and expertise.

Speaker 2:

I feel like I want to do just a whole episode just on this.

Speaker 1:

Could well be dude.

Speaker 2:

That's super fascinating to me. I also want to write a note that I personally would love to see if, when we put our put our thing together, that you teach on that. I think that's really interesting. I've never heard someone speak on it that way and maybe it's just I find it interesting because of my own background, in my own educational background, but like never heard someone talk about it like that.

Speaker 1:

That's a few, it's just, it's all. Just nuance. But unfortunately, because because marketers, the wolves in sheep's clothing, our bros and woos and stuff have come in and they're unsophisticated in this world, right, they've taken the concept of a keynote presentation and they've made it into like let's just, let's make a course that is 30 key notes long and so a keynote presentation. So we were talking about a row, talk about like Ted talks and stuff. You sit there, you shut up and you listen for 18 minutes to this expert share their big idea. Now, I've been captivated by those sessions and it could just be some super smart dude talking about their craft, talking about their passion. Amazing, that's a keynote presentation. Folks, keynote presentation. When it comes into now course, using a keynote as one of your course elements is a fantastic strategy. Making your entire course a freaking 40 hour long keynote is not a good strategy because you don't have the luxury or the prestige of being a at a tenement. What you do need to realize is that there's that balancing act, right? So, hey, using keynote as a tool, great idea. But then bringing something else in, like an activity or an assessment, great idea to break it up. So I think yeah, I think for people the thing to take away. How do you want your learners to participate in the learning journey? Because, if your answer is I don't have, if you look at your course, I don't have anything that gets them to participate. There's your first problem.

Speaker 2:

And I love the point you made about how do you want them to feel?

Speaker 1:

Oh, yeah, yeah, so we talked about outcomes, right, when we did your review. It's like no, do feel Simple, simple.

Speaker 2:

But feel is a big one. Feel is massive.

Speaker 1:

And it's a two-way street for sure.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that, and for a launch event. That's the essence of marketing when you can make someone feel that's you've done your job. Okay, we will be here all day. If I don't allow myself to, I could just ask, keep asking questions on this particular topic.

Speaker 1:

You know we can't be here all day because I'm in the future. I've got stuff to do. You've got like the sun's gone on your side. The sun's up in my world, yeah.

Speaker 2:

You've got important things to do today. I won't share that, but you've got important things.

Speaker 1:

There's some stuff to do. Yeah, stuff to do, but the people are important.

Speaker 2:

People are important. So you mentioned, you know, someone who just gets up and, like face to camp, speaks at you for 10 minutes. So let's talk about how do you deliver the information. So, like, what is the vehicle? We're using slides, are we? We're not face to camming the whole time, as I already know. That much is the answer from what you just said.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's absolutely the answer.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay, is there something better? Is there something better than just slides?

Speaker 1:

No, it's not a. It's not a. Is this better, is this worse? It's just think about. Just think about it. You know people. People talk about Zoom. Fatigue is a real thing. I'm Zoom fatigue. Zoom's not as effective as being live, because you lose the connection. I call bullshit every day of the week. Right? Zoom is the greatest thing that's allowed me to connect with more people around the world from my bedroom or from my office than any, than any tool I've ever used, and there's no other tool that allows you to share and demonstrate your skills and knowledge with anything that you want. You could be sharing a Word document one minute, you could be watching a video, the next you could be playing a video game or, you know, contributing to a virtual whiteboard. All in the all, in the comfort of your own home. And from a respect perspective, live events do not respect the learner. Sound bite that shit. Right? Live events are not fully respectful to the learner because it's not just the cost of the event that they have to pay. They have to like the amount of time and logistics that are involved with attending, like national style of events or even local ones. Right, you got to give up a day of work. You've got to travel there, you got to pay for parking, you got to pay for your food, you got to buy coffee, like you've got to then catch up on all of the stuff that you've lost later, right? So when?

Speaker 2:

we talk about respect in person, in person live events, not like live on zoom. Okay, okay, I got you, so that's what.

Speaker 1:

I'm saying Like so zoom is just a privilege man. But if you hear people say I'm zoom fatigue or zoom is not effective, they've just received shit facilitation. Like the facilitators just haven't done a good enough job. So you asked do I share slides, do I do video? Do I like just talk to them? All of it. Like all of it's the answer. And I think it's tricky because, yeah, people, people have just sort of gotten comfortable with zoom and they've gotten lazy. So when I say you know, I would bounce between sharing my slides and sharing just a chat with my face, or then I would bring the audience up on on screen or I would then share a window and go through a piece of software or a tool, I would do all of that as well as using the chat, as well as having a virtual whiteboard for people to contribute to, as well as having questions and answers coming through in the chat. Like all of it is the answer, but it's got to fit in with. It's obviously got to fit in with what you're actually teaching as well.

Speaker 2:

When you say virtual whiteboard, can you define that for the people? Yeah, cool.

Speaker 1:

So on zoom zoom has a whiteboard. So a virtual whiteboard is something that mimics a real life whiteboard that you would have in your, in your classroom, where you can write your notes and do all that sort of stuff. So you can, you could do that in a Google doc, for example. You can have a Google doc open and be taking notes and like sharing that to the screen. But a more, a more effective tool would be to use the Zoom whiteboard. Now, the Zoom whiteboard allows your participants to put stuff on the whiteboard. Now, this isn't high school or primary school. You don't have to worry about, like the students putting weird stuff on the whiteboard. Like you can set the rules, you can set the criteria. But you could use another tool like Miro, m-i-r-o, and then you can put post-it notes, you can upload docs there, you can put emojis, you can vote on things. It's super sophisticated and, from a participation perspective, phenomenal.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and now it's time for another. Get to know Steve and Adrian. Top three places either top three places you've ever been you can interpret this top three places you've ever been or your top three places in the world.

Speaker 1:

That's tough man, that is super tough. All right, I have the island of Atataki, which is in the Cook Islands. So the Cook Islands is like two or three main islands that you can get to. Atataki is one of them. Yeah, imagine it like it's what Tahiti would have been if no one wanted to go there and it wasn't super touristy. So yeah, cook Islands number one for sure. From a beauty, beach, sandness, bam, the top of Mount Fuji in Japan.

Speaker 2:

Radical, like amazing Japan in general, you climbed Mount Fuji, yeah yeah, it was really cool.

Speaker 1:

Like the Japanese think of everything, like I'm not one for souvenirs of stuff, like places, I don't have a whole. I buy a bunch of knickknacks and stuff, but you don't have snow globes on a shelf somewhere? None of that, but they had a version of this which was fricking cool. So at the base of the mountain you buy a walking stick, a wooden stick, and then at each altitude milestone there's someone there that you can pay to burn a stamp into your walking stick. So you acquire all these burnt stamps into your stick. So, yeah, if you make it, you get to complete the stick with all the cool, and they're cool. Yeah, japan is known for its quirky and cool stuff. Cool shit, for sure.

Speaker 2:

Who gets that job to be like. You have to go to the top of the mountain and just hang out there, for whenever someone makes it.

Speaker 1:

People pay for it, you pay them for it. So I think they're like village folk and all that sort of stuff. They just, yeah, that's their jam. They're like the 10,000 feet stamp dude, here you go and so, yeah, you can't buy that anywhere, you have to earn it, and it was a difficult hike. It wasn't for the faint of heart. You get altitude sickness, you know. You get beaten like a rabbit dog.

Speaker 2:

What time of year it?

Speaker 1:

was warm, it was there summer, so it was sort of like around August, which is your summer. So I think. Japan and America got the same summer, opposite to us.

Speaker 2:

Was it in the hemisphere?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, opposite to us.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I'd go there.

Speaker 1:

Then yeah, I'd say tough one, like I'm not sorry, USA, you don't make it into the top three. There's two. It'd either be the forests of Finland and the lakes, or Piha Beach in New Zealand, like another beach, if I was to pick. If I had to pick two, I'd pick Piha Beach in New Zealand, which is North North Island of New Zealand, or, yeah, the Finnish forest cottage scene.

Speaker 2:

You were pretty into Finland when you were there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, finland was freaking awesome, Seriously awesome.

Speaker 2:

Have you learned more of the language? I'm working on it.

Speaker 1:

dude, I'm working on it. But as a learning guy, as someone who specializes in learning, I am feeling my age with language at the moment, like I don't my brain. I can feel the lack of elasticity in my brain when it comes to memory. I used to well in Japanese. It was like I could write, wrote, learn 50 words a night and it'd be there the next day, whereas I'm struggling to get like a dozen words in my word bank in a week. It's like I think I need some new techniques because, yeah, it's definitely different, it's cool, it's a cool, noticeable difference. But man, it's frustrating to be. It's frustrating to spend like 20 minutes like learning five words and then go away and come back and it's like and they're not there, they're not even close to being there.

Speaker 2:

So could you? Could you say something right now? Can you say hi, how are you?

Speaker 1:

Hey, hey is, hey, that's cool, thank you. Good job, yeah, good job. Good start, good job, good job, good job.

Speaker 2:

That's is it? I feel like I asked you this when you were there, or I've mentioned it. It's true that Finland has no gender. Is that correct?

Speaker 1:

Their language does not have he, she pronoun or I know that, like they have, they have the pronoun, but when you, when you speak it, when you speak it, there's no case for he, there's no case for she, that's just he, she.

Speaker 2:

US does. If there was a number five, would you make a list?

Speaker 1:

Not that needs to, I guess, I guess I could you know there's some beautiful parts of Hawaii that would make the list for sure. Most of the places that I've seen I've seen in a canoe right. So it's like probably no, you're up there you go. The Nepali Coast on Kauai in Hawaii, yes, Like majestic.

Speaker 2:

Every place you've mentioned I've some place. I've never been any to any of them. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Why is one of the only US states I've never been to?

Speaker 1:

needs to be on your list for sure.

Speaker 2:

I am five or six states away from having them all, so that's got to make it happen. All right, let's get back to it. Is this when you said earlier, dynamic versus static? Ooh, is that what you? Is that something different than this?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, dynamic and static. The difference between dynamic and static content from my perspective and again, all this is just my like, it's my opinion, right, so there might be another definition out there and that's cool. But like this, this is how I see it is yeah, dynamic and static. The difference is participation. So if you've got static content, you're just talking at me and I don't have an opportunity as the learner to contribute or participate in the learning. If it's dynamic, then I get to participate and you're involving me in the process. That could be as simple as asking me a rhetorical question, but you'd be surprised how many people fail to even use that strategy. In an evergreen course, like in your course, do you ask your audience any rhetorical questions? Do you ask them any real questions, like when it comes to? When it comes to, you'd be surprised the lack of lack of just those basic fundamentals of audience engagement.

Speaker 2:

So when you're like, if you're recording material that's going to go live in, live in a course, you would make a point to ask questions to get them interacting and participating in that way, to just keep them. Oh, now I've got to think about this.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely. So a couple of like, real practical things is number one. Like your third party course platform has the ability to put code into the, into your course player. So, minimum, if you don't want to go and invest in a hardcore like chat bot, like many chat or parrot or any of those sorts of things, you would just install the messenger bot widget so that they could message you on Facebook Messenger if they had a question at any time during your course. Right, like, and I don't don't know if that was, if that was well explained, but yeah, you put the, you put the code and then down the bottom corner, you got like your little, your little messenger window. You can click that and then, inside of your course, they could message you on Messenger. So that's just a way of bridging the gap between yeah, you're evergreen, but you're still connected with me. The same thing is like you could set up a virtual whiteboard that can be used by all of your self-directed or evergreen students. So then I can still log into the whiteboard, I can still put my stuff there, but I'm just not doing it in real time with everyone else, so it loses its impact, but it's still impactful because I'm allowed to participate and I can then see whatever. I'm also sort of set about a particular thing or shared, so that still makes me connected to the cohort or to the group.

Speaker 2:

That'd be super fun to have in a in a course environment or in a coaching environment.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's sort of like a community. It's a complex and enhanced community, but the community. So it's not about. It's not about hey, I'm Steve, hey I'm Adrian, hey I'm Jimmy. Like it's not about that. It's about oh, hey, here's lesson, here's topic one. Here's the collaboration board that people have. Like this is what other people have thought about that question that I asked Cool, like oh, these are the emojis. Like a cool facilitated exercise is, like you know, pick the emoji that most, most represents your like state at the moment and upload it onto the whiteboard. And put it on the whiteboard and that's cool. Like you could, you'll see the activity, upload your emoji, you go there and you'll be like wow, I wonder what made that dude pick like the snake emoji. Interesting. Like cool, right, steve, cool.

Speaker 2:

I like that. That's interesting.

Speaker 1:

And something, something really important has happened. And it's difficult on a podcast when you're listening to it, folks, but you know, you know, when you've nailed engagement and participation and good facilitation, when you see the person that you're explaining it to start to smile. Because that's what happened with Adrian. Adrian started to think about the example of looking at emojis, or I'm on the whiteboard, and then a bit of a smile happened. Bam tick, done. Like. That's an effective like, that's a win, because if your audience is doing that, they're in their part, they're on the journey, like, like. There's the feel word, the feeling and the connection was made. You win Right. And it was as easy. It was as easy as going. Put an emoji in the chat as to which best reflects your mental state. Like, done.

Speaker 2:

There was the snake emoji specifically.

Speaker 1:

Snake emoji yeah, snake.

Speaker 2:

So what I'm hearing you say is your goal is to just make people smile. I heard a lot more. That's a response for sure, for sure. If you can get that, you can get that.

Speaker 1:

That's a response for sure.

Speaker 2:

I like it.

Speaker 1:

That's a very easy win, easy win today.

Speaker 2:

It's cute, like it's a cute little win, so think about it like that. All right, I like it, I like it. So, going back to more, I guess this would be more of a live training or I guess you could maybe explain some way that it could be done evergreen, so you get to the end of the training or if it happens throughout, like people have questions, they need things explained. Is there a Q&A at the end? How do you facilitate a Q&A or hot seat style section to keep people engaged and get something, get something substantive out of it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure, I think, a Q&A. I always love to try and make things evergreen, if I can. For someone to say you can't do a hot seat, q&a evergreen, I'd challenge it. I'd be like, yes, I can, yes, I can, but let's go with live first. Should you do Q&A in your launch events or hot seating as part of it? So, adrian, you used the term hot seating. I mean, I got introduced to it by you. What's the definition from your perspective? Because I think it's a coachy thing, right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, for me it's the difference of if there's going to be Q&A, it's going to be more of a rapid fire. I'm going to look at what questions I'm being asked. I'm going to spend maybe a minute or two answering things. Maybe, if there's really something to unpack around it, there will be a real teaching point. But hot seat style coaching is where I'm going to you tell me your problem or ask your question. I'm going to ask you questions back and we're going to really get into your specific situation. So it is, yeah, it's kind of like coaching.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, cool, I'd absolutely add that in. But just be mindful of the timing of your session, right? Maybe the Q&A is optional it's definitely at the end and the hot seating is also optional. So it's like, hey, hard line, the session is over, the actual session is done. So maybe in your let's go back, maybe in your promotional and your pre-event pump up stuff and your expectation setting hey, sessions are 30 to 40 minutes of education and then there's an optional Q&A and hot seating that goes for another 30 to 40 minutes. So the total time of this session that's going to be on is 90 minutes. But you can hop on and hop off. Here is the clear lines of what's happening and what's required of you, because, yeah, again, that's respect and then make time and make sure it's well-facilitated. So if you're going to do a hot seat, I think it has the potential to be a trap, but if you can control it, well, you just don't want one person to steal the show and take 20 minutes of your time. So you have to be a good facilitator there and go. Oh, hey, jimmy, we're getting into the weeds a little bit more. Let me shoot you some looms and let me connect with you offline Because, yeah, we're getting far too deep down the rabbit hole, dude, and I want to bring some more people up. Cool, thanks. Then follow up with Jimmy. That's the key. Follow up so that they don't feel like, oh, you're just getting rid of me. It's like you should fire If you've got a support, if you've got the ability to have support on your challenge. I would be like, hey, jimmy, yep, we're going to get you set up. I would then just like tell one of my support team hey, can you send Jimmy now the calendar invite to book in for a 15-minute quick chat? And so then Jimmy gets off the call, sees it in his inbox Holy shit, steve's already emailed me. Whoa, I feel good. I don't feel like he's just shut me down, so that's important. If you're doing just like Q&A, how you collect the questions is important. So that is one of the downsides of the chat is the chat just becomes this like vomit-induced, like fest. If you're doing like ones and emojis in the chat as reactions, so having somewhere for them to submit their questions, that might not be the chat, that might be an extension opportunity for you. But if you are just like questions in the chat and then scroll like close the questions and then scroll up and start going through them one after the other. That would be good too. If you've got like a Zoom producer or a team, you can get them to help you coordinate those questions which help as well. Someone managing the chat can be super helpful, oh man yeah, if you can get and this could be like a buddy like you just usually team up like I'll help you, you help me, and then you've just got someone else there to take that pressure off, because that is a real skill and you'll see really good Zoom practitioners do this. Where they can have and I like to think that I sit into that space is that I can have the chat open while I'm facilitating it full speed and I'm reading the chat and I'm able to then stitch whatever. So I'll see that Jimmy asks a question about you know, what sort of time should I do ideally for learning material? And I'll be talking about something I'll be like oh yeah, there's a great question from Jimmy down there. He's asked about learning duration. It's this, this, this and this, jimmy. Hope that helps, mate. Anyway, let's keep going on to this. That's a. That's a really good like mark of a good facilitator. But if you're not there yet, ignore it, like make, make time at the end of your point to just go hey, I'm just going to quickly just check the chat to make like we'll catch up with the chat at every sort of like stoppage point. So then you actually then allow yourself to like look away from the camera, go and bring the chat up and scroll and do all that sort of stuff. So like that's absolutely okay and I think people need to remember that it's okay for you to tell people hey, I'm just going to check the chat, so I'm not going to be like I'm going to stop for a second. I'm just give me, give me a few few seconds. But that's a great place for you to then give an activity while you're checking the chat. Right, the difference between season facilitator and a rookie is I'm just going to stop. Let's stop everything and give me two minutes. Folks, I'm just going to read the chat Silence, or. Hey, here's a question for you to think about. Here's an activity on the whiteboard for you to do while you guys are doing that. I'm just going to catch up on the chat and make sure that I've got all those things there To me it's not that like as we know as, and maybe what our experts out there don't realize is that for me, like for me, that's not smart, that for me, that's obvious. But what I learned is that, because of my expertise in particular areas, I'm at a point where I can't remember what it's like to not know, that that's an option and you'd be the same as experts. There's experts out there that you just genuinely just have forgotten. You are unconsciously competent at your craft. You can't remember what it was like to not know some real basic stuff, which means you'll miss the point with your audience a lot. So always when you hear people say like that's smart, and if you get triggered and be like, huh, it's real basic stuff, have a look under the hood there. That's a really cool little place of gold for you to like probably run a whole month, like Adrian said, like see, we're running a whole session, basically just on, you know, facilitation versus expertism. Okay, I just thought that that was something everyone knew, but, as we've discovered, it might not be. So let's unpack like you could. You could build a whole course on like some of the most basic, simple information and it will probably be the most engaging, successful program in your whole suite of tools, If you did like a 101 foundation series real, true, foundational shit.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, I think it's. It's a. It's a great point, but it's smart in that you know, like when you first said facilitator versus expert, I was like I don't know that. I fully know where you're going with that. Like, what specifically do you mean? How do you define the difference between the two? Like what's the bullet pointed list of you know the, the, the general high level overview of what does this person do versus what does that person do? When should you be? When do you put which hat on? Like there's? I had so many questions just on that one little thing and the point that you just made around what did you just say? That, like, if you're gonna, if you're gonna go check the chat, like give people an activity to do, I don't know I I if I've seen people do it. I didn't register that.

Speaker 1:

That's why they were doing it so good little tricks that you can get a little bit of tricks to like give you time, because that's the other, that's the other challenges. If you're doing this by yourself on zoom, like you have to, you have to make time for yourself to be able to catch up.

Speaker 2:

It's a really good. That's a really good suggestion, and can I share the two things that that came up for me around? That is, things that I've found helpful is asking my people at the beginning, like if you have a question and you're going to be able to answer that, if you have a question, is this, as this goes, so that it's easier for me to gauge what's going on, please type the word question in all caps and then ask your question so that it signals to me like I'm not looking for anything with a question mark to go back through. I don't know if you've done that, but your version is more helpful than my version is. But if you have someone, in my opinion, if you've got someone who can help you, get a shared document out and have the person who can see what's going on, short of someone saying like I don't want to publicly, I'm going to send it directly, privately, to the facilitator. Beyond that happening, have the person who's helping you put the question in a word doc and then you've just got it there and, as you answer them, you go and then you don't have to search, search, search, that's. I found such a. It gives you your time back.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, definitely, I used to when I was facilitating in the corporate world and I still do every now and again. But this was this was just post COVID, and I used to have to say to people, if you're going to private message me on zoom while I'm mid session, like I would be going, I'd be going as hard as I could for hours and hours a day. Like, if you're going to private message me something, make sure you capitalize it, because if you don't, I'm going to read it as part of my like check the chat. Oh hey, jimmy's just said something, or hey. So some and I and some people were like do you're fucking out of control? Like what's what? Like how are you doing this? And I'll be like, and I just look down and I'd see, like Sally and say this and I'd be like sell, I'm not out of control, you're out of control, it's all cool for someone's like what are you doing on the weekend? And I'll be like oh hey, jimmy, like we're gonna, we're hanging out on the weekend, right? Like oh shit, that's not supposed to be for the rest of the crowd. So I had to like put an audible in to be like, if you're going to private message me mid facilitated session capital capital letters. Or it gets read out like no, no, apologies if. If you don't do that, because I will, just I'm not. I'm not that sharp to be able to go. Oh, that's, jimmy, we're catching up on the weekend. Jimmy, I'm not going to read that. There's not enough bandwidth for me to do that at that time. So, yeah, that's a good. That's a good way to do it and a good way to filter back to see. Anything with caps is a question, or yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so, to round this out, one, one more, one more little topic, and then we'll we'll call it a day. So, and I think that this is a really fascinating question in terms of of an event in which you are going to pitch something. Just talk about, like, how do you give points of action, how do you give homework, how do you have assessment, particularly when you are going to pitch something as well, like, does it how, how may, how may it interfere with you, know, your? actual selling and but also making sure they get something to walk away with and, you know, actually actually move on something.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure. So in your court, like in your course, assessment needs to exist, right, you need to, you need to. You need to confirm that whatever you said you're going to deliver, they've actually delivered. That's the outcome, outcomes argument, right? So in the course, it's heaps easier because you don't have the overlay challenge or adventure of getting them to buy something from you as well.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

So assessment, participation, things to share, things to do, reviewing their work all that sort of stuff should just be taken as read and that should be in there. If you're not sure what to do there, let's go back and listen to the review that I did with Adrian on her program in terms of in terms of some of the things that you can do to to enhance that. But, yeah, at your launch, at your launch event. That again is based on the type of launch event that you use. So if you're doing like a challenge and you've got multi day, you would need to allocate a particular time of the challenge to focus on the pitch. But in order to get to the pitch, you would absolutely want to have like activities or opportunities for the learners to, or your audience to, submit some work, ask some questions, get some more time with you, because all that does from from that perspective In a sales event or a launch event capability is just build more trust and respect. Like there's very the challenges that I've seen that have been good have been ones where you're actually submitting homework. I'll give you an example. So I recently participated in a challenge with someone who was like helping. Their offer was like advanced Zoom skills and this is like Rain man level Zoom stuff like really, really, really impressive, really impressive things, and so the way that they round their challenges, that they would teach. They would teach something on the challenge in a live capacity. Now it was over in the in Europe, so I was asleep during it, so I would catch the replay. So I'm watching the replay of this and the replay wasn't edited, it was but the. But there was no disrespect from like it was. They've obviously built it with evergreen in mind, so there was no long breaks or, you know, open Q&A, blah, blah, blah, blah. But at the end of each day of this five day challenge, there was homework for me to do and I could submit my homework. This is the homework in this case, for this, for this program, was I've just taught you to do some cool shit using Zoom press record and then show me you using the cool shit that I've just taught you, uploaded into the community and I'll have a look at it and give you some feedback. So that was it. Something as simple as that. Each day, as I learned something, I, and then, if you did it, if you did it, you went into the draw on the last day to win something. It was like a prize right, and you talk about that a lot in your challenges which is super successful, like the treasure hunt. It was sort of a very it was a very basic version of that, where it was one thing that I had to do If I did my homework every day and I uploaded it before the start of the next session, that qualified me for a pretty decent, a pretty decent prize. But that for me then allowed, allowed. I didn't even blink when he switched into pitch me. On day five I bought his program.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

That was I don't buy too many programs. You know me, I don't buy too many programs. I bought this one and yeah it was, and I I commented to him and I just sort of said, listen, the reason that I've bought this and I don't care if you read this or not, like whatever, like you probably won't or care, like you probably won't care about this feedback from me. You've just got my money and like congratulations to like well done, you deserve it.

Speaker 2:

But I explained why you just negated the whole thing. You did such a good job on this job. You took such care of us learners to make sure that we were getting what we want to start. You're probably not going to care why about any of this. Just remove all humanity from it.

Speaker 1:

No, I have to because in reality, some people don't, some people don't really care about that, that sort of thing, and I've got an example as to why I can say that, because I know it happened to me in opposite. So this was positive, he loved it, he really appreciated it. I just said, listen, this is what I do for living and, like what you do on zoom is an extension of what I do, but I can only dream of being as good as you, so hence why I bought your program. But your challenge and the way that you included me throughout it, the way that you involved me, the way that I felt getting like I would get a notification because he used the platform other than Facebook group as well, I would get a notification on my phone that the guy who's running the challenge has commented on my homework.

Speaker 2:

Is this the thing you showed me the other day? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Do you keep like, like, think about for a sec For me that guy's already got my respect because of the way that he was, that he's handling himself on the actual lessons that he's teaching me. But then I didn't. I dropped everything just to go and read his comment and it might just be like a robot, I didn't even know if it was him, but I saw his name commented on my homework. I mean, I'm going in there because it made me feel super special. So I told him, you know, I gave him that, I gave him that feedback about you know, all the things that I really liked about the way that he got me to there. And then his like his pitch. Dude, his pitch was like 60 minutes long and for me, for me, like, but it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't sleazy as long, it was just long. And I commented on that. I'm like, look, probably could shorten that a little bit, but it was still impact. It was still impactful. He was still teaching during his pitch as well. So he's still sort of giving a bit of, you know, knowledge. It was still an orchestrated, structured, you know part of the part of the challenge.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

You know, that was that, was that was really important. And then just quickly, like I, I got a. I got a couple of emails about another program recently and so I went to like, I went to sign up for it again. Like, did really well, got me without any sort of real teaching, just more like an email sequence. I went to sign up and I went from an email to a PayPal page and then I'm like, ah, I've got a, I've got like a credit card that's got, you know, no, no real money on it. It's just sort of like it's got enough to do the first transact transaction and then it's just going to fail because I won't put money on it to protect myself from potential risks around you know, scams and stuff. So I went through and I paid the first month of this program and it was like I've got a PayPal receipt, no welcome email, no, nothing. So I lit this person on fire. I just said, hey, man, I've got to give you some. This is not a same person, different person. I'm just going to give you that. I'm going to give you the, the, the, that, even though, like, people don't care about feedback, that's what. That was the point that I wanted to, wanted to make. So, yeah, I messaged this guy and I'm like dude, you, you claim to, you claim to provide a product or a service or a program that makes you X, and this area is very prestigious and very well polished and very well presented. I have just gone through your purchase process and I'm skeptical that you even exist. I think I've just been scammed and you should be like, you should be really like, mindful of no welcome email. No, thank you page. No, you know anything like lift your game, dude. And he came back and he's like oh, it sounds like you don't have a growth mindset, bro. So I think it would just be easier for us to like refund your money and like you're going to be difficult for me and I I'm like I got back and then I'm like listen, listen, you had an opportunity here, man. Yeah, you had an opportunity here to manage my expectations. So I have every right to tell you that your process is sketchy and the way that you've chosen to react tells me that you are so. Thank you very much, adios Montacho. You know, chargeback city, you're those chargeback, you're hearing Spanish and an Australian accent. So there you have it Long way, long way around there. But yeah, how would you, how would you inject the pitch or put the pitch in there? It's okay to pitch folks. That's probably something that you need to. You need to hear. It's okay. It's absolutely okay and expected Adrian and I have talked about it in other sessions. Right, like you tell them, hey, this is how this session is going to run. On the last day, I'm going to teach you the last little piece of the puzzle and then I'm going to invite you to come and hang out with me and tell you a little bit about my program. Now I'll tell you when that's going to happen and you're more than welcome to jump off. You don't have to stay for it, but for those of you who want to stay, it's going to take about this much time and at the end of it, there'll still be some Q and A. Cool, let's go. So what you can do, either cleverly or strategically, is you can put something significant after your pitch. It's okay, but you have to like for me. Just just tell me what's going to happen. It's called sign posting. Just take me on the journey as long as I know that, hey, I'm going to actually get Q and A with you at the end of this. Oh yeah, I have to stay through your pitch. Okay, okay, cool. Don't pitch me for an hour and make me sit through it and then say, oh, we've run out of time. See ya Like gross.

Speaker 2:

Gross. Yeah, that's, that is gross. I know the first program that I ever bought into it was a. It was a series. It's a significant price tag and it taught, like, how to run a webinar and the strategy was that, whatever you are going to, okay, if there's going to be, if you want feedback on this for yourself, if you want to ask questions, if you want, like, the secret word to be eligible to get whatever the thing is like, you have to sit through, you have to sit through the pitch. It's like part of the strategy. Do you have feelings on that?

Speaker 1:

I think, as long as, as long as I'm aware of what's happening to me. Yeah, okay, pitch is not a dirty word. Like people know, I'm signing up to a free challenge for five days. Is that it? No, it's not, it's not it, but you still, you, as the creator of the challenge and the expert, you still own the way that you make people feel about it. You can make people feel really good about being pitched or you can make people feel really shit, or you can make it feel really sketchy or dirty. You own that decision. It's not the learner who's going to all of a sudden be like ugh, they're pitching me gross. They fucking know, man. They know that there's going to be a ask at some point during the challenge, but don't sneak it up on them. And then be like surprise, pitch and lock the doors. How are you going to lock the doors? And like, hey, you can leave now. Motherfuckers, you're trapped here for like the next 30 minutes while I bash you psychologically to death. It's not a horror movie, it should just be that like we already done it and we're giving you scripts. So like, just pay attention again. Hey, everyone, you know this is how this session is going to run today. We're going to do 20 minutes of teaching and then I'm going to. I'm going to, I've got something to talk to you about, I'd love to invite you to or show you how you can work with us further, so I'm going to take maybe 20 minutes to talk you through that. Now, that's optional If you want to jump off and not sit through that, no stress or good. But then after that we're going to go into the Q and A and the final hot seat and that's where we're going to really sort of let you like, shine and tile this stuff together. Sound good, let's go, let's get into the teaching. Like that's, that's not dirty at all.

Speaker 2:

All right, Anything, anything we missed, anything that you think we need to probably?

Speaker 1:

but probably. But that's why we just like keep hanging out doing, doing these things. But yeah, I think it's it's cool, it's cool to hear that there's some, there's some interesting stuff there. But yeah, I think I think moral of the story facilitation and expertism two different things. You can be good at both. You can be good at one. Could a facilitator that doesn't have expertise do better than an expert? Yes, I believe they could. Could they do it forever? No, because they'll reach a point. Right, you'll get to. You'll get to a point where your tricks, your sorcery, your facilitation like look at this a rabbit or has a like your magic will run out Because the sophistication or the level of knowledge that your learners have gets very close to the level of knowledge that you have. Cause, brother Brunson says all you need to do to have a course is be one, one chapter ahead of everyone else. Yeah, cool, that works if you've got really banging facilitation skills. But very quickly that gap gets so close that people are like does? this guy even know anything. So that's where, yeah, you would want to be an expert who then learns how to be a good facilitator. That's the best combination, right? But I still like to think that I started out as a really good facilitator who then just stumbled into expertism in some things.

Speaker 2:

What jack of all trade. Master of some, master of something.

Speaker 1:

Master of something or at least on the some some, some sort of mastery. But yeah, that's part of the fun, part of the fun. But yeah, make your learners feel something. Think about the feel. If you can make them feel you, you will, you will do really well.

Speaker 2:

You win.

Speaker 1:

You win.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I like it. I think this was also a good illustration of something that you said I don't know a couple of weeks ago around like get your kid and have them go through your course, or someone who just doesn't know anything about what it is that you're what it is that you're talking about. Maybe not, they know nothing, but they, you know they're at a. They're at a level where someone, someone similar to your learner, might be in some shape or form and, like I've so many ideas of like what I want to hear you talk about in our own program.

Speaker 1:

Oh dang, yeah, See, that's. That's also one of the traps of this adventure is like we're going to run a launch event at some point, so right bro.

Speaker 2:

Soon yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right bro, right bro. Eyes are on. We've got to put our money where our mouth is. I think it's going to pull out of the pull out of the hat this time.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, Don't get so fancy that I look like a, like a, just a lump on a log, not knowing what I'm doing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, if I'm producing your resume, event like you won't.

Speaker 2:

Okay, well, what are we going to do when you, when it's your turn?

Speaker 1:

Oh, I can produce my own. It's like yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm like I'm okay, Okay, I can press my own buttons.

Speaker 2:

So the way that this is going to work is, when it's your turn to talk, you're going to do all the work. Isn't that how our relationship works?

Speaker 1:

That's funny, Kenzie. Any comments, Mackenzie?

Speaker 2:

send me that one, please. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

That's a. This is great. Everyone should, everyone should get themselves a little.

Speaker 2:

I would business partner or something. Yeah Well, it's not a business partner. The actual, the actual job.

Speaker 1:

So the job title that exists here is a Zoom producer. Oh, everyone, get a Zoom producer.

Speaker 2:

You can hire me, adrian. Like you know, I'm a hireable for Zoom Production, but I don't.

Speaker 1:

I don't want to. I don't, I don't do Zoom production for people that I don't respect here's, so I'll do it for you. Here's the deal.

Speaker 2:

I'll give you 50% of whatever we make. Deal, deal, deal.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm open for JVs, I'm open, I'm open for JVs, jvs, and he's going to be like I'm not going to do it, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it, I'm not going to do it, I'm not going to do it. I have to solve all of the problems in terms of history here and I'm also not going to. You see this? Just go toizen or service department. I used to go behind on my peptide you know, in line Gold, you know and you, you know ma for nothing save your volume and have. Yeah, coffee yeah.

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